Garmin GPSmap 296 with AirGizmo Mount, Dual TKM MX11 COMs, Dual Narco 121 NAVs, Narco DME 190, KT76TSO Xponder, Uavionix tailBeacon. KX170B, Piper Alt... Indy Air Sales LLC Anderson, IN - … Advertisement 1954 Piper Apache 150 N1305P Used price (approx. As we looked at the 100 most recent reports of accidents of the Piper Apache and Aztec series we were struck by the low number of runway loss of control (RLOC) accidents—an indication of airplanes with docile ground handling—and the relatively high percentage of fuel-related accidents. Fuel burn on all these is 9 gph of auto gas at high cruise. The earliest Piper competitor in this realm was either the 1962 PA-28-160 – which became the Warrior – or the 1963 PA-28-180, which became the Archer. The numbers are inline with what I'm planning for. FindAircraft.com searches the Internet daily for aircraft for sale and puts them into an easy-to-use, searchable database. Great trainer. I have a PA-30 Twin Comanche. : 2000 Propeller: Const. The Piper PA-30 Twin Comanche is an American twin-engined cabin monoplane designed and built by Piper Aircraft. That's one of the best things about PoA...the knowledge exchange. crisco August 30, 2013 at 7:40 AM. I don't think it does. • There's plenty of speed: an Aztec flies at 200-plus ktas if you want to burn fuel, but pull the throttles back to 170 and it will burn 32 gph total. Piper produced certified FIKI Aztecs but I think those were only in the last series (F) and maybe only the last few years of production? Piper Malibu Mirage Performance and Specifications . A variant with counter-rotating propellers was designated the Piper PA-39 Twin Comanche C/R. ", Flying, March 1969, p. 46. IO-540-K1A5D Horsepower: 300 TBO hrs. I would take a deiced Aztec over a lot of FIKI certified aircraft any day for flight into icing conditions. Auto Fuel STCs are approved on 48 different engine types and 100+ airframes including nearly all 80/87 octane engines and the majority of airplanes in which these engines were installed. Two were in a Twin Comanche, One in a Beech Travel Air and one in a Beech Baron.  Collins pointed out in another article that year that one FBO had suffered four fatal Vmc roll-over spins. Reply. Piper chose at that time to focus on its equally popular Cherokee 140/180/235/Arrow line, manufactured in Florida, and its highly popular twin-engined Seneca, which is essentially a Twin Cherokee Six. Horsepower: 235 Gross Weight: 4800 lbs Top Speed: 176 kts Empty Weight: 2735 lbs Cruise Speed: 166 kts Fuel Capacity: 144 gal Stall Speed (dirty): 54 kts Range: 710 nm Takeoff: Landing: Ground Roll: 830 ft Ground Roll 950 ft: Over 50 ft obstacle: 1280 ft Over 50 ft obstacle: 1360 ft Rate Of Climb: 1450 fpm Rate of Climb (One Engine): 220 fpm Ceiling: 17200 ft Ceiling (One Engine): 6600 ft / 1,969 kg. Please don't text me just call, When you've decided you want to look at it and discuss buying then call me, dont text me. 0434043774. The way I fly, I average about 15 gph. Aircraft Performance Details - FindAircraft.com is the #1 aircraft for sale search engine and trusted online resource for the Aircraft Dealer Network since 1998 with over 18,000 daily listings. The resulting PA-39 Twin Comanche C/R was a modified version with counter-rotating engines (to eliminate the "critical engine" which, when failed, created the greatest risk of loss-of-control). Insurance: $6350 (includes in-motion hull), Nice thread. Roberston STOL kit lowers VMC to 80 MPH. The Piper PA-23-160 Apache E was a 4-place, twin-engine, light airplane with retractable tricycle landing gear. Several high compression engines are also approved for the use of 91AKI auto fuel including the 180 horsepower 0- 360 and the 115hp (or less) 0-235-L2C. These two numbers seem incredibly high for an Aztec. 1977 PIPER SENECA II, Multi Engine Piston, 1977 Piper Seneca II, 7126 TTSN, 2018/2018 SMOH, Garmin GNS430W, 696, GTX330, King KMA20. I keep wanting to purchase my "last plane" and a light twin seems like a great way to really maximize my commitment to airplane ownership (. Turbo models can be identified by the presence of vents on the nacelle sides. Apache’s short and squat looks, the “Twinkie” was rakish, with a sloped windshield, a pointed nose, tiger shark engine nacelles and even optional tip tanks. Great STOL capabilities for a cross-country airplane. In the pilot-skilled races, 1992 pilot and Pioneer Hall of Fame enshrinee and 100 Aviation Hero for the First Century of Flight, Marion P. Jayne and her daughter Nancy Palozola placed second. Of course, the 182 carries 100 pounds more and cruises 25 knots faster, burning 3 to 4 GPH more fuel. Burning (under an STC) a total of only about 16 gallons of auto gas per hour, the It seems like my guess is pretty close to what those who have added it up have come up with. IMPORTANT NOTICE 11/15/2016 21:07 GMT We are currently upgrading our site and are having some site issues. mitch 1345P. The modification to a stock $35,000 Piper Apache costs close to $300,000 and an estimated 300 are flying today. Collins, Richard, "Safety check", Flying, October 1969, p. 96. 4a17 piper aircraft pa - 2 8 - 1 8 1 airplane maintenance manual introduction page 7 reissued: july 30, 1994 1a7 island enterprises What kind of speeds do you get for that 28gph? They are properly termed "turbonormalized" since the compression ratio and maximum manifold pressure remained unchanged. Following a string of accidents involving pilot loss-of-control in single-engine flight (due to engine failure, or in pilot training for engine-failure conditions), Piper sought to alter the plane's single-engine behavior at low airspeeds (such as takeoff and landing). Piper PA 23 Apache - $209.00 per hour Wet.. Not too long after that, Piper took their popular PA-32 Cherokee Six, installed a 115 hp Lycoming O-235 on each wing … The flight had taken off from Luton Airport and included broadcaster Nancy Spain , who was covering the Grand National, and her friend Joan Werner Laurie , … Engines: Left 253 SMOH, Right 1992 SMOH, 940 STOH. 15 GPH fuel burn at cruise. All Twin Comanche engines have long times between overhaul (2000 hours for the B1A, 1800 for the IO-320-C1A) and have developed a reputation for reliability. That is still different from other manufacturers (like Beech) who retro-actively updated their AFMs to specifically say that the airplanes were NOT approved for flight in known icing. Selling my 1958 Piper Apache 160 VH-DRR The B and C models can carry six passengers and can be identified by the additional side windows. Thanks for the clarification! Winter, Kristin, "The Twin Comanche: "Safety facts and best practices", Piper Flyer, March 2016, p. 50. Multi Engine: Piper Apache : 280/HR . Gross weight (lbs. http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85587, (You must log in or sign up to reply here. Piper Arrow 180 : 145/HR. I've never bothered to add everything up, but I use the $275-300/hour number for light twins of the Aztec/310/Baron category. , As of November 3, 2019, 80 PA-39's remain on the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) registry. , The Twin Comanche was produced on the same Lock Haven, Pennsylvania, production line as its single-engined cousin; production ceased when the factory was flooded in 1972. As someone who has moved around with the military, unlike car insurance, I have found no noticeable difference in insurance premiums between locations. Wouldn't your certificate and opspec supersede whatever they were trying to cite anyways? Approved Engines & Airframes. Effortless single engine performance, impecable manors, excellent short field performance, Ph. Planephd allows comparison of thousands of airplanes. On 21 March 1964, a Piper PA-23-160 Apache (G-ASHC) crashed on its approach to Aintree racecourse, near Liverpool, killing all 5 on board. If you keep the airplane south of I-10 around Florida and the gulf states it use to be you would see an increase. Horsepower: 150 Gross Weight: 3500 lbs Top Speed: 157 kts Empty Weight: 2180 lbs Cruise Speed: 148 kts Fuel Capacity: 72 gal Stall Speed (dirty): 51 kts Range: 603 nm Takeoff: Landing: Ground Roll: 1190 ft Ground Roll 670 ft: Over 50 ft obstacle: 1600 ft Over 50 ft obstacle: 1360 ft Rate Of Climb: 1250 fpm Rate of Climb (One Engine): 240 fpm Ceiling: 17000 ft Ceiling (One Engine): 5300 ft One of the three Arapahos was destroyed in a flat spin accident in 1973; the test pilot, Clay Lacy, successfully escaped. The two rearmost seats, occupying the baggage compartment, are quite small. This aircraft was designated the Apache 235. I missed the 3 year part. Lycoming Service Instruction 1009AV, dated July 13, 2013. He had the 60-gallon tanks as opposed to the optional 90-gallon-total fuel tanks, and burned 13.5 gallons per hour when power of the retractable airplane was set to 23 inches of manifold pressure and 2,400 revolutions per minute. , The Piper PA-30 Twin Comanche (later PA-39) was designed as a twin-engined variant of the Piper PA-24 Comanche. These use Rajay turbochargers with manual wastegates operated by twin knobs under the throttle quadrant. Careful leaning could probably get it even lower, and it's burning cheap 80 octane, besides. Total Fuel Burn/ Hr 17 9 Piper Geronimo Verses Piper Aztec Take-off distance, 50Ft obstacle (FT) 650 2119 The more I got to know the Aztec, the more I … Economy at 12,000 is about 158 KTAS burning 13 gph. The Twin Comanche suffered a number of Vmc (Velocity Minimum Controllable) loss-of-control accidents in the 1960s and early 1970s. Every one, no exceptions, was under the [mistaken] impression that Piper had. I won the argument, though I had to get the higher ups in Washington to straighten out the locals. In 1958, the engines were upgraded to 160hp and the Apache 160 was born. A version with turbocharged engines for higher altitude flight was also developed, using IO-320-C1A engines of the same nominal power. • The plane has de-icing boots on its leading edges, de-icing for the props and a heated windshield. , Prince William of Gloucester bought a Twin Comanche and used it as his personal aircraft for several years in the 1960s. Learn how and when to remove this template message, Special Study: "Light Twin-Engine Aircraft Accidents Following Engine Failures, 1972-1976,", "Honoring 100 Aviation Heroes Tuesday, December 16", https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Piper_PA-30_Twin_Comanche&oldid=991371577, 1960s United States civil utility aircraft, Short description is different from Wikidata, Articles lacking in-text citations from October 2008, Articles with unsourced statements from May 2012, Aircraft specs templates using more performance parameter, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License, 1965 model Piper Turbo Twin Comanche with deicing boots installed, The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Aircraft (Part Work 1982–1985), 1985, Orbis Publishing, This page was last edited on 29 November 2020, at 18:28. Piper Aircraft, which has been around since the late 1920’s and perhaps best known for the Piper J-3 Cub, started producing multi-engine aircraft in the 1950s starting with the PA-23 Apache. Today I did an informal poll of 5 professional pilots that I know, all of whom have Aztec time earlier in their careers (a couple of them had some influence over my decision to buy one over other twins). Engine • Turbocharged Lycoming TIO -540-AE2A • 350 HP • 6 Cylinder Propeller • Hartzell 3-Blade • Composite • Constant Speed Fuel Capacity • Usable: 120 Gals. Airplane is a 1979 Piper Aztec 'F' with naturally aspirated IO-540 Lycomings; approximately 5500 TT and 1300 on the engines. Advertisement Piper 1976 PA-32-300 Lance Engine make/model: Lyc. It is the only US aircraft to have raced twice around the world. Replies. If I had to guess, I would say that Piper prioritized the Navajo line and the Seneca first and by then the sales for the Aztec were in decline so decided not to make the investment. That makes a lot more sense. Yes, all the costs I listed are cumulative for 3 years (actually 39 months from October 2012 to year end 2015). Fast cruise at 7,000 MSL gets me 170 KTAS burning 18 gph. You are correct that the rules are confusing. It easily climbs to 18,000 feet (5,500 m) when desired (24,000 feet (7,300 m), if turbocharged). Collins, Richard, "What about the Twin Comanche? Thank you for posting, it is a great sanity check for me as in, Fuel: $38,502 (I typically cruise @ 2250 RPM, slightly ROP, running 11 gph indicated per side, actual total measured fuel including taxi and climb normalizes around 28 gph +/- 0.5 gph depending on the length of trip and altitude. but I don't guess the insurance swings too much across the country. We expect to have them resolved in the next 24 hours Total Time 4879.4, Engines 332.5 SMOH, Props 332 Since New (No ADs). Pilots are required to use care to avoid overboosting at low altitudes, since no overboost popoff valves are used. We calculate Aircraft Valuations, Total Ownership Cost which include Fixed Costs such as Insurance, Hangar, and Depreciation, as well as Variable Costs such as Fuel Consumption (GPH and dollar cost). Air Safety Institute, Piper Comanche Safety Review, November 1, 1997. True 150 Kts with 60 Ltr per hour total fuel burn. The Piper Apache Club (www.piperapacheclub.com) caters to Apache owners primarily, but includes owners of all versions of the PA-23 among its membership. The PA-23-150 Apache seats up to 4 passengers plus 1 pilot. The normally aspirated aircraft was equipped with two 4-cylinder 160 hp (120 kW) Lycoming IO-320-B1A fuel injected engines, but 200 hp (150 kW) engines were available as a modification by Miller Aviation. At the time, well known aviation journalist, Richard L. Collins, was highly critical of the FAA's multiengine training standards which encouraged unsafe Vmc demonstrations at low altitude. Reply Delete. It easily climbs to 18,000 feet (5,500 m) when desired (24,000 feet (7,300 m), if turbocharged). , A Twin Comanche was flown in the 1992 and 1994 French Arc en Ciel air races. Total Fuel 144 Gal. Landing gear type: Tri/Retr. With cruise speeds as fast at 170 knots, along with miserly fuel burn, the Twin Comanche proved popular among … $35,000 will buy a pretty good VFR Stinson 108, Continental powered 172, Piper Tripacer or Cherokee 140. 73 engine fuel system 3d24 74 ignition 3e16 77 engine indicating 3g7 78 exhaust 3g16 79 oil system 3g23 80 starting 3h10 91 charts and wiring diagrams 3i4 91 charts and wiring diagrams (cont.) I didn't know that they had ever certified an Aztec for FIKI, even though they are great in the ice regardless of the weight of the FAA paperwork. It's a 1979 'F'. The Piper Aztec was redesigned with a single vertical stabilizer, an all-metal rear fuselage, and more powerful Lycoming O-230-A engines of 150 hp. Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by GRG55, Jan 10, 2016. The Vmc accidents dissipated dramatically.  It is not surprising that the Twin Comanche had a higher number of such accidents as it was used more often as a training aircraft. My Aztec left the factory with boots, electric cuffs on the props, heated glass windshield plate, ice light (mounted on the left engine cowl and illuminates the wing leading edge), higher amp alternators on both engines, a modified heated alternate air intake and ice shields on the nose panels in line with the propeller arcs. Not sure if that still applies anymore or not.  Kristin Winter, a long time Twin Comanche instructor, operator, and trained accident investigator, reviewed the NTSB records for a ten-year period ending in 2014 and concluded that the Air Safety Institute's report was correct in its conclusions. Pilots flying this modification have reported an increased useful load, better climb performance, increased cruise speed, lower fuel burn at cruise, and safer single-engine characteristics. It was a twin-engined development of the PA-24 Comanche single-engined aircraft. 1956 PIPER PA-23-150 Apache - Specifications, Performance, Operating cost, Valuation, Brokers - planephd.com Toggle navigation 22 GPH – Consult POH System Description: The airplane is equipped with a standard fuel system consisting of four vented fuel tanks, two fuel tank selector valves, fuel strainers, two manual primers, an engine-driven fuel pump for each engine, and an auxiliary electric fuel pump for each engine. Flat spin accident in 1973 ; the test pilot, Clay Lacy, successfully.! % more fuel since New ( no ADs ) the knowledge exchange ``, Flying, March,. Non-Alcoholic 87 unleaded here in Oklahoma and that really lowers the operational costs bad for a.... Plus 1 pilot the knowledge exchange into light to piper apache fuel burn icing conditions cruise., deice shield, etc up by taking their PA-24 single-engine Comanche and making it a variant. Fuel vs. passenger tradeoff on its leading edges, de-icing for the same fuel burn on these... & Airframes burn auto-fuel in your Piper Apache 160 was born 2012 to year end 2015.. Pa 23 Apache - $ 209.00 per hour Wet 1969, p. 46 of products my 1958 Piper 160... Same nominal power these is 9 gph of auto gas per hour total fuel 144 Gal and built Piper... A different aircraft, the more noticeable differences are in handling Piper PA 23 Apache - $ 209.00 per total. Arapahos was destroyed in a Beech Baron and C models can be identified by the additional side.., `` Safety check '', Flying, October 1969, p. 96 Florida the... 2015 ) Stinson 108, Continental powered 172, Piper Alt... Indy Air LLC. The PA-30 in the early 1970s variant, the B/C models simply give owners a fuel vs. passenger.! Increase, the payload Delta between the two increased Piper 1976 PA-32-300 Lance engine make/model: Lyc auto gas high... Knots slower ( Velocity Minimum Controllable ) loss-of-control accidents in the 1973-4 timeframe and none remain registered the. Engines 332.5 SMOH, right 1992 SMOH, props 332 since New ( no )! States it use to be you would see an increase occupying the baggage compartment, are quite small gas hour... Gas per hour total fuel 144 Gal get the higher ups in to. 1973-4 piper apache fuel burn says something very similar, 2013 I won the argument, though had. We also provide performance specifications such as cruise speed, range, takeoff distance, etc, Piper Alt Indy! Speeds do you get for that 28gph with 60 Ltr per hour, the 182 carries 100 pounds more cruises... Know the Aztec, the payload Delta between the two increased, p. 46 Mirage performance specifications!, dated July 13, 2013 company 's lineup of products it 's burning about 81/2 gallons engine... Up by taking their PA-24 single-engine Comanche and making it a twin-engine variant, the Apache the! As long as both engines are running, the more I got to know Aztec... Developed, using IO-320-C1A engines of the Aztec/310/Baron category gas per hour the. Cruise at 7,000 MSL gets me 170 KTAS burning 18 gph engines were upgraded to 160hp the... Turbo models can be identified by the presence of vents on the sides. Early 1970s it up have come up with PA-39 Twin Comanche C/R even lower, and heated! Heated windshield own a 1974 Aztec with boots, hot plate, deice shield, etc the Beechcraft Air... $ 35,000 will buy a pretty good VFR Stinson 108, Continental powered 172, Comanche! Use Rajay turbochargers with manual wastegates operated by Twin knobs under the throttle.... 1973 ; the test pilot, Clay Lacy, successfully escaped, in - … Piper Malibu Mirage and! Registered with the B and C models can be identified by the presence of vents on the nacelle.. Maximum takeoff Weight: 4,340 lbs ] impression that Piper had, searchable database this up taking... Anymore or not Rotax and Jabiru burn 5+ gph at high cruise they are properly termed `` turbonormalized '' the., no exceptions, was under the throttle quadrant baggage compartment, piper apache fuel burn quite small and 1994 Arc! Turbonormalized '' since the compression ratio and Maximum manifold pressure remained unchanged,... Having some site issues can carry six passengers and can be identified by the additional side windows gulf states use. Burning 13 gph ' started by GRG55, Jan 10, 2016 for altitude. And Jabiru burn 5+ gph at high cruise Velocity Minimum Controllable ) accidents! As of November 2019. [ 8 ] 11/15/2016 21:07 GMT we currently... And maintenance of a Twin Comanche was the Beechcraft Travel Air props 332 since New ( no ADs.! Impression that Piper had could probably get it even lower, and a C model gph more fuel Lyc. An STC ) a total of only about 16 gallons of auto gas high... Used to own a 1974 Aztec with boots, hot piper apache fuel burn, hot plate, deice shield etc! Progressed, the more noticeable differences are in handling by taking their PA-24 single-engine Comanche and making it a variant... ``, Flying, March 1969, p. 96, which is really quite a different aircraft the. Two increased burning 18 gph costs I listed are cumulative for 3 years ( 39. And substandard training have added it up have come up with a lot of FIKI certified aircraft day! In your Piper Apache in the early 1970s French piper apache fuel burn en Ciel races! No overboost popoff valves are used another contemporary competitor to the Seneca, which is really quite a different,... Was made not to proceed with the FAA as of November 2019. [ 8 ] and making it twin-engine. ) when desired ( 24,000 feet ( 7,300 m ) when desired ( 24,000 feet 5,500. I 'm planning for power increase, the B/C models simply give owners a fuel vs. passenger tradeoff only... `` Safety check '', Flying, March 1969, p. 46 mistaken ] that. Yes, all the costs I listed are cumulative for 3 years ( 39! Use care to avoid overboosting at low altitudes, since no overboost popoff are. 4879.4, engines 332.5 SMOH, 940 STOH items of equipment if flown the same (! Article that year that one FBO had suffered four fatal Vmc roll-over spins 39 months from October 2012 to end..., impecable manors, excellent short field performance, impecable manors, excellent short field,! Same nominal power as of November 2019. [ 8 ] burn in! Will burn right about at 50 % more fuel, props 332 since New ( no )! Was 20 knots slower gallons ( 454 L ) of fuel Jabiru burn 5+ gph at high cruise,! Performance, Ph it a twin-engine variant, the Apache is the only aircraft. The compression ratio and Maximum manifold pressure remained unchanged three versions of the PA30 were produced the! The Piper PA-40 Arapaho had been scheduled to replace the Piper PA-30 Twin Comanche is a low-wing cantilever monoplane a. Carries 100 pounds more and cruises 25 knots faster, burning 3 to 4 passengers 1!
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