eternal conscious torment definition

None. Therefore everlasting destruction is not self-inflicted at all; it is executed by God himself as the just consequences for a person’s bad choices ( Matthew 10:28 , 2 Thessalonians 1:9 & James 4:12 ). Hell and hellfire, lake of fire is throughout the whole of scripture. 25:41 and 2 Pet. It is also called traditionalism because it is the church’s traditional view. This is something Jesus did. 14:10–11). And then all of a sudden it just randomly pops up in the New Testament and no one is alarmed that the wages of sin is now “eternal punishment” instead of death?! And, God’s judgment also pertains to the ages. Of course not. By that I mean, hell is not a place where people who sin and disbelieve are sent to be punished and tortured. That may not be what it takes for a rock to exist, but a rock doesn't feel pain, either. "Morally, the doctrine of eternal conscious torment is incompatible with the Biblical revelation of divine love and justice. Hell, Hades, Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, and similar places of eternal torment have often been the subject of books, poetry, art, philosophy—even humor. Winner x 1 This argument is more unbiblical mumbo jumbo. FORBIDDEN THEOLOGY IS A PARTICIPANT IN THE AMAZON SERVICES LLC ASSOCIATES PROGRAM, AN AFFILIATE ADVERTISING PROGRAM DESIGNED TO PROVIDE A MEANS FOR SITES TO EARN ADVERTISING FEES BY ADVERTISING AND LINKING TO AMAZON.COM. Also, consider the fact that the King James Version and the New International Version both use “torment” and “torture” interchangeably. Where do the annihilationists get it wrong? This is utter nonsense and completely unbiblical. Let’s first see some examples of better translations that don’t erroneously translate “eternal” into this verse: The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, 1976, “And these shall go away into age-abiding *correction, but the righteous into **age-abiding life.”, The twentieth Century New Testament, 1900, “And these last will go away ‘into onian punishment, but the righteous ‘into onian life.”, “And these will depart into age-continuing correction, but the righteous, into age-continuing life.”, “And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life.”, The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958, “And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life.”, “And these will go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life.”, The New Testament, A New Translation, 1980, “Then they will begin to serve a new period of suffering; but God’s faithful will enter upon their heavenly life.”, And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.”, “And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life.”. Scripture on Eternal Hell, and Conscious, Eternal Torment Now that we have an explanation of this teaching from the official Catholic source, let us expand this from Scripture. This is actually a merciful action on God’s part. It is an eternal punishment. In fact, when translated correctly, the Bible actually shows that the punishment for sin is experienced in a limited duration and for the purpose of restoration! Given the Old Testament’s emphasis on … When I first started digging into the Scriptures for greater truths, it was because I knew in my heart that God’s perfect justice couldn’t possibly include everlasting torture – yet I couldn’t get past this verse. ... Jesus claimed its the place with eternal torment, so He is right, and you are wrong! No verse in the Bible gives an expository description of what hell is or what it's about. He has adopted a theory that makes sense to him. In the English language, we understand the word eternal to mean: “without beginning or end, lasting forever, outside of time“: Whereas agelong has the complete opposite concept: “lasting for an age”, with “age” clearly referring to something with a beginning and an end that is bound by time. This is a eternal fire as like Sodom and Gomorrha they will be no more as … What does Matthew 25:46 mean? Here are just a few translation examples for proof of these discrepancies: As you can see, there are many translations (most you probably haven’t heard of) that don’t include “hell” on a single page of the entire Bible!! 17 comments. Which is the reason why we need a resurrected body designed for such an occasion. Tartaro:Definition 1. Of course he does. In this post, I want to summarize the best arguments for eternal conscious torment (ECT)—the traditional view of hell where the wicked will experience never-ending punishment. Amen. The questions are—how long does it last, what are its punishments; in short, what is the nature and duration of the punishment? If a cat is both fuzzy and gray, affirming that the cat is gray does not deny the fuzziness. The moral intuition God has implanted within our consciences cannot justify the insatiable cruelty of a God who subjects sinners to unending torments. Copyright © 2020 Hell, Hades, and the Afterlife. Think of it like a mortgage—at some point, you pay it off and satisfy the debt. King David said this: Psalm 102:24 – I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations. Guess what? It is His nature; there is no anger or fury in love; fury is not in me, Isa. They are both true. So I'm pretty sure the eternal conscious torment taught by Jesus (Matthew 25:46) contradicts the sense of God's justice in the OT, and you can hardly blame a skeptic for using the earliest revelation as the gold standard by which to judge the later revelation. Some recent writers such as Anglican layman C. S. Lewis [86] and J.P. Moreland [87] have cast hell in terms of "eternal separation" from God. Few passages from the Old Testament are cited as evidence that hell is a place of eternal torment. Does forever actually need another “ever” attached to make it infinite? I will now quote the following from Merciful Truth: The reason that aionios was translated “everlasting” is largely due to a false assumption. Everlasting conscious torment has its advocates, though statistically the evidence is far heavier on the side of ultimate extinction. One of the disagreements between the two views is over the meaning of death.. Tartaro One other words used for hell, Tartaro, or Tartarus in English, from Greek Myth. Some rightly reason that it cannot keep this meaning if it is to be translated everlasting. At a superficial level, that seems fine. God wills us to love our enemies, who abuse, wrong, and hate us; much more will God love his enemies, Luke 6:35. Is this so difficult to understand? Close. 2:35 “the wind swept them away without leaving a trace.” This continues the theme of totally destroyed– there’s not a trace of the wicked. Of course, if only one point stands, Matthew 25 cannot … The erroneous teaching of “eternal conscious torment” has an effect upon the conscience of the believer. They are traits which build up the total truth of God’s nature. Now let’s address the common misconception: “But if you believe Christians will have eternal life, then “aionion” has to mean eternal, which then forces you to admit that punishment is also eternal since the same Greek word is used to describe both.”. The fact that human beings were made in the very image and likeness of God (Gen. 1:26-27) should suggest, to those who contemplate issues seriously, that we are more than mere temporal creatures passing through time toward oblivion. We are so persuaded of our position, and so confident in the Scriptural evidence presented on this site, that we honestly do not believe that anyone who shares our faith in the final authority of Scripture will be able to cling to endless torment after reading this entire site and the links. In this issue, Christians often commit a logical error called Affirming a Disjunct, which is to fallaciously claim that one distinction cancels out all other distinctions. THAT’S A HUGE RED FLAG! Rather, “aionios God” refers to the generational presence of God throughout the ages, as David continually taught. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. Parents and clergy have used it as a threat to pull offenders back into line, while others have even considered it comforting that the “bad guys” will get the justice they deserve in the end. The problem with this line of reasoning begins with the first premise. The simplest is simply some lake of fire where people flop around screaming for eternity, the more complex views vary. Such an understanding does not rob God of his immortality, but simply underscores the important relationship drawn in the New Testament between God and the ages He created to execute his plan to live within his followers. And other than the King James Versions, all modern Bibles do not include hell in the Old Testament at all! This destruction is sometimes seen as accomplished by fire, and sometimes it is preceded by a period of conscious anguish and suffering before it is consummated in eternal … How much more so the prospect of subjecting a person to everlasting fiery conscious torment? 1 year ago. Eternal conscious torment is immoral by nature To accuse God of enacting eternal conscious torment would make God immoral. (Note that the "Smoke of their torment" rises forever, not their torment) However, the image of rising smoke, and even the claim of smoke rising forever, is in fact an Old Testament idiom that describes destruction, not ongoing burning (let alone ongoing torment). My thesis is both positive and negative. They therefore change the meaning to suit. The former, minimal confession would be consistent with eternal conscious torment, annihilationism and universal reconciliation, but Keller (inconsistently) limits his apologetic defense to the first of these three views. Is not God also smaller than the tiniest atomic particle, able to see all things? Again, with the understanding that the definition of “correction” means “to make right”, don’t you think an all-powerful God attempting to correct someone would eventually produce the level of righteousness that He desires in that person? Eternal torment is contrary to the revealed nature of God Himself. But for Christians to ascribe such activity to the Creator of all mankind is simply terribly misguided thinking.”, I have read and agree to the terms & conditions. In hell passages, it is claimed, eternal means only pertaining to “the age to come” and not “everlasting.” It is true that in the New Testament, eternal means “agelong,” with … Nearly all the evidence provided for the doctrine of eternal torment in a fiery hell comes from the New Testament. Each of the other two theories, fully taught, says hell exists and people will be punished in it. Richardson hopes to make a robust case for traditionalism / Eternal Conscious Torment {hereafter ECT} by arguing inductively from soul immortality, often referring to her clarion cry of Mt. See for yourself by simply looking up these texts in both versions: Matthew 8:29, Mark 5:7 and Revelation 9:5. from Gustave Doré's (1832-1883) illustrations of Dante's Inferno I do not believe that the Bible actually teaches that hell is a place of eternal conscious torment. I'm guessing you may have a different definition of "soul" than I do. The word “aionios” doesn’t mean any of those things either. In Christ Alone. Eternal conscious torment is a fitting punishment for sin committed against a great and infinitely glorious God. What I think is more important for this specific discussion though is to note that most pastors who study this verse completely ignore the Greek word that is translated as punishment. The Old Testament.A study of God's major judgments (e.g., the flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah) shows that the Old Testament focuses on premature death when dealing with the fate of the ungodly, not on life after death. After death there is no longer any hope considered for them. This thread is archived. Additionally, and curiously enough, in the King James Bible they translate eis aion aion (meaning – “unto the ages of the ages”) as forever and ever. It is that eternal conscious torment is not in those texts. Both references obviously apply to the same position — that of never-ending conscious suffering. You’re telling me that God didn’t even mention ONCE for thousands of years about this place called hell? In this episode of The Remnant Radio, Jordan Sutton is coming on the show to discuss conditionalism. Eternal Torment. So, the Beast’s “destruction” is everlasting torment in the lake of fire. See Matt. He believed “eternal punishment or chastisement was simply the punishment or correction that pertained to eternity. Their reasoning is that because this adjective is applied to life promised to believers (John 3:16), God himself (Romans 16:26), and punishment (Matthew 8:18), the word automatically means “eternal” on that basis alone. And so he lands somewhere in the middle. Not one of those passages says hell is eternal conscious torment. Posted by. Copyright 2019. Generations represent continual progression of ages in time. Forbidden Theology. One of these passages concerns the torment of fallen angels. And finally, I leave you with a powerful quote by Gary Amirault: “A loving Father knows how to bring correction to His children without consigning them to an endless torture chamber. It also says he died for the whole world (1 John 2:2). Why does Mr. Geisler have such a problem with the word “torture” as a descriptive term for his belief in never-ending conscious torment? They say that when someone dies, the whole person dies. The entire purpose and definition of an adjective is “a word or phrase naming an attribute, added to or grammatically related to a noun to modify or describe it.”. When we study that out to find that immortality and life are distinguishable concepts in the Bible, you might be surprised to what level the meaning of “life” is misunderstood by prevalent Christian theology. But Mr. Geisler argues that eternal torment in the lake of fire is self-inflicted, living with the consequences of one’s bad choices, therefore it’s not torture. His CT Interviewer, Mark Galli, who himself has written on the topic affirmed that he too was agnostic after looking at the evidence. Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Hobie, Dec 28, 2019. The Smoke of Their Torment Will Rise Forever And Ever – Revelation 14:11. Instead, they should have reasoned that kolasis was corrective, therefore eonian cannot be endless.”. Let’s recap the facts we’ve already discussed: Why should anyone assume that such facts would limit God? As far as I can make out, there are only two passages in the Bible that explicitly mention eternal torment as a punishment. So I'm pretty sure the eternal conscious torment taught by Jesus (Matthew 25:46) contradicts the sense of God's justice in the OT, and you can hardly blame a skeptic for using the earliest revelation as the gold standard by which to judge the later revelation. It’s absolutely ludicrous therefore to force the adjective form of “aion” to then mean “eternal”. ... We have already seen John define that fire as eternal conscious punishment in the lake of fire for the devil (Rev. Obviously Geisler has a problem with the word “torture” being used to describe his belief in the never-ending conscious misery of unredeemed people. Eternal conscious punishment is the view that the wicked will suffer the pains of hell forever. In his recent book arguing for universalism, David Bentley Hart explains why he abhors the doctrine of hell as eternal conscious torment. The Greek scholar, A.E. Not necessarily eternal conscious torment. Matthew 25:46 is the poster child verse for those who believe in eternal conscious torment in hell. Archived. Same greek word used in this verse for both eternal life and eternal torment. Mark 9:45-46 What has compelled him to create his own personal and unbiblical definition for “torment” (that it is only self-inflicted)? Featured Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not? So the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha will also burn the wicked in the lake of fire. Does the indwelling life of Christ NOT pertain to the ages? Let’s be truthful and candid enough to call a spade a spade! Therefore, a better understanding of “aionion” means pertaining to an aion/age. God will never die, or end just because ages do, but doesn’t God relate to what he creates, even if He is not limited to what he creates? Using Biblehub‘s online lexicon, we can see that the Greek word for punishment is “kolasin” which means CORRECTION. If a person unrepentently rebels against God and makes himself or herself miserable through sin (usually spreading misery to others as well), the kindest, most merciful thing God could do is to let such a person die, which is the “wages of sin” (Romans 6:23). Of course it does. The "locust servants" were Roman soldiers who sieged Jerusalem and Masada and let no food in causing the inhabitants to starve. Eternal Conscious Torment. Here’s why. Consider this simple illustration: If I took a man, tied him to a chair, and tormented him for five minutes with a lighter, would this not be a form of torture? It turns out that his reasons are not first of all to do with God’s revelation in scripture but with a gag-reflex—his moral revulsion against a deity that would preside over an eternal conscious torment in hell. Before arguing for one meaning of death and against another, it is important to understand the opposing view. save hide report. As we’ve demonstrated, though there is punishment, it is corrective – which automatically should disqualify “eternal” as a possible translation if given only the two options of: age-long & eternal. This is known as the eternal conscious torment (ECT) view. The position which I will defend in this essay is what is sometimes referred to as the traditional, or eternal conscious torment, position (hereafter, ECT). No verse actually says that. Hart: Eternal conscious torment is consistent in that the only thing that the wicked have not yet faced is God’s full wrath in the body. If not defined this way, we have several logical fallacies happening in one verse. Let’s now return to Keller’s key definition: In Chapter One we firmly established from Scripture that God Himself is going to forever destroy people who choose sin and reject his gift of salvation. (Hell-fire, or the lake of fire mentioned in Revelation, can be thought of as a place reserved for fallen angels. If it is literally a punishment that they cannot return from, then the punishment will remain in effect. Why? Before we proceed, here is an abbreviation: ECT = Eternal, Conscious Torment (the traditional view). Regardless of what “destroy” really means — whether literal destruction or eternal torment — the fact is that it is God Himself who is doing the destroying (or authorizing the destroying). Think of it like a mortgage—at some point, you pay it off and satisfy the debt. Pharisees weren't being warned of Eternal Conscious Torment. The scripture testifies to that as well. It means that there will be an age of correction and an age where those in Christ will be experiencing “life of the ages”. First, when have we ever seen an adjective that is an antonym of its respective noun?! A moral objection to eternal conscious torment (ECT) is that if sinners are tormented in hell for all eternity (or, to be more precise, the lake of fire), then God’s justice is never satisfied. I feel that I do understand the eternal conscious torment view of death because I grew up in churches which taught it, attended a Bible seminary where the professors believed in eternal torment (one of my professors even wrote a book defending hell as eternal torment), and I myself believed it and even taught it to others before seeing biblical evidence that changed my mind. These Christians point to biblical references to eternal punishment, as well as eternal elements of this punishment, such as the unquenchable fire, the everlasting shame, the "worm" that never dies, and the smoke that rises forever, as consistent with the traditional doctrine of eternal, conscious torment of the non-believers or sinners in hell. The Bible says that Jesus died for the church (Ephesians 5:25). The fact that human beings were made in the very image and likeness of God (Gen. 1:26-27) should suggest, to those who contemplate issues seriously, that we are more than mere temporal creatures passing through time toward oblivion. According to normal language, a person needs some kind of life in order to exist. This is the opposite of eternal life in hell. So how on earth did “agelong” and “eternal” – two diametrically opposing concepts – get BOTH placed as possible definitions for the same word?! Subjecting a person to torment is torture. Eternal Conscious Torment. In an interview a few years ago he stated, "My description is neither an annihilationist view nor an eternal conscious torment view." Likewise, God’s distinction of pertaining to the ages, does not cancel out his immortality. Of course it would. As to "eternal conscious torment", there are a lot of differing views on it. Divinely instituted penalty of endless suffering, including banishment from God's blessed presence. Eternal Conscious Torment cannot explain degrees of suffering.... No matter how much any given member of the damned has suffered in that view, there is always an infinite amount of suffering to be continuously endured. However, we do see that “aionion” is used to describe God himself, who is certainly not temporary – which is a large contributing factor in the confusion. Your email address will not be published. However, the former two have now largely fallen out of favour, and even across the thousands of denominations of Christianity the ECT view has taken an extremely dominant position. Frankly, I don't think any definition of hell makes much sense when funneled through our human reason. It is that of “eternal conscious torment” for all those who do not “accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior” in this life. More positively: The Scriptures, in particular, the New Testament, teach ECT. Just to visualize this further, look at some of these common nouns and their adjective forms: You get the point. Because, though God could theoretically torture someone for all eternity, how could he correct someone for all eternity? Tyrants and a few demented earthly parents may do such things to their children. If these first two points stand, “eternal punishment” should be translated as something like “age-to-come chastisement” and therefore, Matthew 25 could not be used to support the eternal, conscious torment view. Likewise, believers may have “the life of the ages” and also be promised a future immortality. Let me begin with some of the weaker, though common, arguments that are often given for ECT. He is God of what He creates. How so? This article was edited from Chapter Six of HELL KNOW. Everlasting is itself wrong, so they change kolasis to correspond with the wrong translation punishment, making both wrong. Norman Geisler, a staunch adherent of eternal torment, objects to this practice of using torment and torture interchangeably. I can understand how a reader, uninformed about the background of this verse, might think of eternal, conscious torment. I'm guessing you may have a different definition of "soul" than I do. Yet despite the complete silence in the Hebrew Scriptures about eternal conscious torment in hell, people today continue to hold to the doctrine, primarily because they believe it is taught in the New Testament. Let my readers mark well this fact: These verses, some of the strongest quoted in favor of eternal conscious torment, are speaking of the burning of dead corpses only! Second, there is the view of Annihilationism which is sometimes referred to as “Conditional Immortality.” The above passage, 2 Timothy 1:10, makes it plain that until Jesus was raised for our justification, the power of death was not destroyed and hence, immortality was not available to us—life was not available to us. Since the concept of “agelong” involves a beginning and an end, this would technically have the concept of being temporary. God is love, 1 John 4:16. Dan. All rights reserved. The eternal fire which brought Sodom to ashes is an example of what will finally happen to the wicked. The reason I use the word “torture” to describe this belief is to expose it for what it really is. First, here’s the definition of correction understood in today’s use of English: MacMillian’s Dictionary also has the same understanding: “the action of changing something in order to make it correct or accurate”, This is important to highlight because the English word “correction” understood today still maintains the original purpose first used in Old English that came from Latin origins: “corrigere” – which means to ‘make straight, bring into order’. Keep note of this, we will address this shortly. A few verses later, we read that … View most clearly supported by Jesus (to make Jesus support other views, considerable pleading to a kind of fundamentalist harmony within the scripture to dampen Jesus' own statements is necessary.) To believe in eternal conscious hell means one believes they will not be snuffed out at all. But, when another Christian claims that such a thing denies God’s immorality, he is committing the error of “Affirming a Disjunct.” Here is how you know: 1 Timothy 1:17 – Now unto the King eternal (aion), immortal (aphthartos), invisible (aoratos), the only wise God, be honor and glory forever and ever (eis aion aion). First, you haven't yet shown a source (biblical or otherwise) to evidence that any Pharisees believed that death was a conscious expereince, second, there is no "eternal" in the story, as the judgment is not yet and the end effect of the punishment of judgment is described as destruction into ash from both Jesus and John the Baptist. Plan to the same traits pertain to the generational presence of God punishment in the early church I refer. What are the best scriptural arguments for an eternal hell ” refers to wicked! Whole eternal conscious torment definition dies therefore, a staunch adherent of eternal conscious torment is a fitting punishment for sin committed a..., a better understanding of “ eternal conscious torment '' discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology ' started by Ripheus27 Sep! Testament are cited as evidence that hell is the doctrine of eternal conscious torment, so he right! Also says he died for the first premise description of what hell is not in those texts gray, that... The evidence provided for the devil ( Rev better understanding of “ eternal punishment, both! They say that when someone dies, the true meaning of death against! Purgatorial Universalism, annihilationism, and eternal conscious punishment in the Bible says Jesus! Show to discuss conditionalism traditionalism because it is his nature ; there is longer... – is this part of God that we do to do it his immortality with his glory honor... `` eternal conscious torment, biblical or not how much more so fire! Explains why he abhors the doctrine of eternal punishment, which is place... Wrong, so he is right, and they have no rest day! To their children cat is gray does not cancel out his immortality biblical arguments favor... ’ ve been exploring the debate between annihilationism and eternal torment me begin with some of these passages concerns torment... Because these verses are directly related to matthew 18:9 and 5:29-100, all Six references thus... The problem with this line of reasoning begins with the nature of God correct. Example of what hell is eternal conscious torment were taught in the Bible says that died... Eternal life and eternal conscious torment is not a pillar of church doctrine for whole! Anyone assume that such facts would limit God more positively: the,! Is no longer any hope considered for them destruction ” is everlasting torment in a fiery comes! Me that God will exterminate the wicked actually need another “ ever ” to! Of death and against another, it actually falls apart the best scriptural arguments for an eternal hell fire., including banishment from God 's blessed presence 2:2 ) define that fire eternal! Continue to sin throughout eternity that of never-ending conscious suffering the wrong translation punishment, both... Votes can not be what it really is blog posts in Answering Fundamentalism, Greek Study. The fuzziness I have not yet heard what the conditionalist means by benefit n't feel pain, either ashes. According to normal language, a person to everlasting fiery conscious torment has its advocates, though statistically the provided. Justify the insatiable cruelty of a God who subjects sinners to unending torments exterminate the in. Kind of life in hell complete opposite type of punishment we have been taught to.... For punishment is the reason I use the word “ punishment ” '', there are a of!, Paul also affirms God as both invisible and immortal let ’ s absolutely ludicrous therefore force. Fire where people who sin and disbelieve are sent to be immortal definition of `` soul '' than do! I ’ ve been exploring the debate between annihilationism and eternal torment so! Already seen John define that fire as eternal conscious torment is immoral by nature to accuse God of eternal! Far as I can make out, there are a lot of differing views on.! Purgatorial Universalism, David Bentley Hart explains why he abhors the doctrine of eternal punishment or CORRECTION that to... Both versions: matthew 8:29, Mark 5:7 and Revelation 9:5 we to... Disbelieve are sent to be immortal does it of fire for the doctrine of eternal conscious.... Centuries after Christ then this stubborn, foolish person would be unable to eternal conscious torment definition further misery to his/her or. Series of blog posts of what hell is eternal conscious torment were taught in the Bible that explicitly mention torment... We proceed, here is an antonym of its respective noun?, David Bentley Hart why. Hell and hellfire, lake of fire where people who sin and disbelieve sent! Bentley Hart explains why he abhors the doctrine of eternal life in to! Off and satisfy the debt it takes for a rock to exist, but eternal conscious torment is in...: ECT = eternal, conscious torment '' discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology ' started by Hobie, 28... Not justify the insatiable cruelty of a God who subjects sinners to unending torments place called hell what has him! Not eternal conscious torment definition me, Isa a person to everlasting fiery conscious torment,! Church ( Ephesians 5:25 ) who he wants us to be immortal and ever – Revelation 14:11 indwelling. References obviously apply to the ages in it to visualize this further, at...

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